tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post5048370357515101457..comments2023-12-27T14:54:22.671-08:00Comments on The Kew Continuum: The Church of England after a Year BackRichard Kewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10917359509462320976noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-91820666971775627712009-01-02T13:48:00.000-08:002009-01-02T13:48:00.000-08:00>One has to ask, perhaps, what the next fad mig...>One has to ask, perhaps, what the next fad might be...<BR/><BR/>Engaging in a long-distance superificial reflection, I'd suggest that those who dive back into their own tradition will create the future. <BR/><BR/>More interestingly, I'd suggest that the significant forms of renewal need to be community-based (i.e., ministry as a community not in the community). Interesting forms are lay orders (e.g., TOM, the Order of Mission - which you must have met in a year) and lessons to learn from the "Christian Community" movement (e.g., The Liberation of the Church by Rev David Clark.).<BR/><BR/>So the need is to recover traditional forms of organisational renewal as well as liturgical/worship renewal.<BR/><BR/>As you say, getting stuck with Wimberized Worship is no more use than being locked into any other straitjacket - lots of wind, no Spirit.<BR/><BR/>RgdsMatt Wardmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04326720801362744582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-67880272345790650412008-10-07T07:07:00.000-07:002008-10-07T07:07:00.000-07:00Greetings Father Richard! Yours is now one of the ...Greetings Father Richard! Yours is now one of the 'Blogs I Watch'.<BR/><BR/>We haven't corresponded since you've come back to UK. So welcome home!<BR/><BR/>I think you'll note my subtle irony in the salutation. I'm sure you were happily called 'Father' by at least a few faithful Evangelical Anglicans in Tennessee!<BR/><BR/>We're sort of mirror images in a way. I was raised and ordained in TEC, specifically the Diocese of Dallas, and came over here to do further training as a first post assistant curate. I will doubtless have go back to Dallas at some point to practise priesthood - for various reasons not least being by widowed mother. (I am an only child.)<BR/><BR/>Like you I was shocked upon arriving here by the intense Balkanisation of the Church of England.<BR/><BR/>You've got the 'Evangelicals' who often reject canonical liturgical theology as unnecessary and irrelevant. I recently 'presided' in another parish at their home-grown Communion service. I could find no discernible Trinitarian shape; it seemed almost Sabellian. To my surprise, Evangelical clergy here are never called 'Father' nor - heaven forbid! - may anyone dare, without looks of withering disapproval, make the Sign of the Cross at the absolution of the blessing at the 'Service of Holy Communion'.<BR/><BR/>Then you've got the 'Catholics' who eschew canonical moral theology. They happily call their priests 'Father' but, more often than not label as unnecessary and irrelevant issues of morality - apart from 'social justice' of course, which at least in Anglican parlance, e.g., minus the sanctity of human life and the family, is often just baptised political correctness.<BR/><BR/>I am currently a piggy in the middle, i.e., 'liberal Catholic', who may affirm the former but never the latter in my parish conversing and preaching.<BR/><BR/>That said, I love authentically Anglican liturgy where it is allowed to continue unabated, and that is done with robustness here at St Michael's Church, Bishop's Stortford (just down the M11 at Junction 8).<BR/><BR/>I am really pleased you've also connected with a village parish church where Evensong is done properly. I have the privilege of officiating and precentoring at ours quite often, and that in addition to singing the odd bass solo, e.g., Dyson in F for the Nunc Dimittis.<BR/><BR/>You're welcome to join us on 19th October (6.00pm) or anytime if you like. Our Director of Music is a brilliant young Cambridge grad who still lives in Cambridge with his bride. He oversees a solid choir of trebles and adults.<BR/><BR/>Please say hello Dean Kevin Martin whilst you're over there next week! I was ordained Deacon at the Cathedral Church of St Matthew and in many ways my heart is still in Dallas. Plus I'm still canonically resident!<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Fr Darryl+<BR/>(Do you miss being able to sign your name as a priest, i.e., with an appended cross?)FrDarrylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14220816236848071291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-76274363598726014732008-10-07T06:54:00.000-07:002008-10-07T06:54:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.FrDarrylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14220816236848071291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-37740632988466186872008-09-23T21:37:00.000-07:002008-09-23T21:37:00.000-07:00Richard, Harvey again. I am greatly impressed by y...Richard, Harvey again. I am greatly impressed by your concerns, and believe me, you got me thinking in some new directions.<BR/>I will bring something to your attention that I believe you already know: St Augustine's "Semper formanda, semper reformanda." Yes, always forming, always reforming. In other words, always changing. <BR/><BR/>I am reminded of Hans Kung's statement that “All too easily the Church can become a prisoner for the image it has made for itself at one particular period in history.” (The Church, p. 4). The sad effect of this is a detachment between the church and the very people she means to be a missionary to. <BR/><BR/>There is no culture-free gospel. Be it in Masvingo in Zimbabwe, Mansfield in England, or Mankato, MN in the USA, the church is always located in a cultural context that demands its relevance. What if the wimber-ization is simply a way of being culturally relevant? And may be in the words of Kung, it is just moving along with the times, avoiding being stuck with an image that was relevant in the 17th century?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-10566279566896298832008-09-22T10:08:00.000-07:002008-09-22T10:08:00.000-07:00Richard,Is evident by your perspective and your de...Richard,<BR/><BR/>Is evident by your perspective and your deeds (at least previously here in the states) that the Anglican church tradition as you understand it is a most high priority. <BR/><BR/>I base that assessment on what I have personally seen of you, read from your writings, and seen firsthand, when you caved to the anglican leadership and reneged on your own commitment to a small congregation in Tennessee that no one forced you to make in the first place. <BR/><BR/>I pray that our Dad continues to confound us with his love for us and that he draws his own to him however he pleases, anglicanism, wimberization, catholicism, methodism or any other perspective or exclusionary practice, including my own be damned. <BR/><BR/>For sure Dad will not care a bit about my ability to regurgitate man-made doctrine when I am in his presence. <BR/><BR/>I count on Dad reminding me to see value in what he sees value in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-72686496564889478782008-09-22T02:06:00.000-07:002008-09-22T02:06:00.000-07:00Harvey,Yes, the cultural contexts are rather diffe...Harvey,<BR/><BR/>Yes, the cultural contexts are rather different, and the sort of things that the church is struggling to address here will be very much on the agenda of the churches in the USA in years to come. <BR/><BR/>However, I think behind this are more than externals of how worship is conducted, etc., but a whole understanding of the church, its message and its ministry. <BR/><BR/>I have learned a lot over the years from the late Robert Webber, who spoke movingly of the church being Ancient-Future. That is, the church is rooted in its history yet looking forward to what is to come culminating, of course, in the fullness of Christ's kingdom with the wrapping up of all creation. I think Bob Webber was absolutely right. <BR/><BR/>What is missing here in the UK is a sense of the value of what is ancient, and instead there is a sense that what is ancient and received from the past is a bit of an embarrassment that needs to be swept on one side. There are great dangers, of course, when we ignore our history, and I think this is one of the shortcomings here.<BR/><BR/>While style is obviously part of the issue so also is the philosophy and theology that is behind that style. Reaching out to a culture that in many places is six or seven generations removed from Christian awareness means that we have to approach what we are doing rather differently, but I would suggest that it does not mean we should abandon the whole of our heritage.Richard Kewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10917359509462320976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-45472068391849861322008-09-21T20:48:00.000-07:002008-09-21T20:48:00.000-07:00Richard, I think I am beginning to understand you,...Richard, I think I am beginning to understand you, and please, be free to correct me if I am not reading well.<BR/><BR/>"Wimberization" as you put it seems to have affected the British church more than it did in the USA. And I think this is a wonderful observation. <BR/>But having observed the two contexts, I think this is understandable, which makes your stance really helpful.<BR/><BR/>The mainline churches in UK have experienced something that the American context has not seen yet, a post-Christian west. As a result, they are more willing to adapt to this new and different context of post-Christianity, even to the point of letting themselves to be "wimberized." Even though it downplays the rich heritage that the Anglican church has, it helps encourage some people to stay in church that would not otherwise.<BR/><BR/>I once visited one Anglican parish in Durham, England. They had two services, one for the traditional Anglican Mass and the other for contemporary worship. Yes, the Wimber stuff. The same bishop presided over both masses, but in the second service, he did not wear the robe, and he actually played the acoustic guitar for the worship team.<BR/><BR/>Now, I know this is not very Anglican as we have known the Anglican church over the years, but the second service attracts a certain cultural group that can never feel comfortable in the traditional mass. <BR/><BR/>And if Wimber helps us reach them, why not employ him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-75171542166344722832008-09-20T05:03:00.000-07:002008-09-20T05:03:00.000-07:00Wimberization: term whose use is to elevate ritual...Wimberization: term whose use is to elevate ritual and liturgy in one christian church tradition over another. <BR/><BR/>Would you say "grace" at a meal prepared and attended by the one who created us?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-9719968601126971442008-09-09T12:40:00.000-07:002008-09-09T12:40:00.000-07:00Hello Richard,It is nice to hear from you again.I ...Hello Richard,<BR/><BR/>It is nice to hear from you again.<BR/><BR/>I believe you see liturgy from a different perspective than folks who are unfamiliar with liturgy and church of any kind.<BR/><BR/>I am reminded of a statement in Toward 2015..."our job is to make Christians not Anglicans". If we are to do it in todays ipod, iphone world....we have to do in a way to connect with unchurched or folks unfamiliar with Anglicanism. That is don't change the message...change how we deliver the message.<BR/><BR/>We have been in a new plant since 1993 using the technology and music which connects with the folks we are trying to reach. We have gone from an ASA of 400 and growing to an ASA OF about 100 because of 2003 but more so because clergy have tried to bring us back to the fold. Rather than been innovative and evenagelical its back to the status quo. <BR/><BR/>I believe we can reach those not part of us, guide them on their journey and change lives by knowing and connecting with who our "customers" really are....yet doing it within a liturgical context.<BR/><BR/>Regards from the colonies,<BR/><BR/>Jim Baker<BR/>Cary, NCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-46467865051804024282008-09-07T07:21:00.000-07:002008-09-07T07:21:00.000-07:00Harvey, what has happened in the Church of England...Harvey, what has happened in the Church of England is unlike much of what has happened in the Episcopal Church. I think it has to be said from the outset that the two environments are entirely different from one another, so comparing responses to changing circumstances and patterns is rather difficult.<BR/><BR/>American Anglicans have at times learned from the Vineyard movement, but this has not been at the expense of the root Anglican tradition -- which is what seems to have happened here. Indeed, my observation of the Vineyard in the USA is that in many places it is a two-way street with them discovering some of OUR riches like elements of our theology and liturgy.<BR/><BR/>American Anglican evangelicals tend to glory in their ecclesiastical and liturgical heritage, while Anglicans in Britain almost seem to be ashamed of it. Liturgy seems to be seen here as a burden rather than God-given resource to bring us into the presence of the Lord of Hosts. <BR/><BR/>I cannot tell you how tired I already am of the endless repetition of contemporary songs and hymns that seem designed more to evoke emotion than edify the mind, heart, and soul by focusing my attention on the God who has revealed himself.<BR/><BR/>When I was a young priest in England before moving to the USA there were plenty of my contemporaries who either said or thought that they were part of the Church of England "because it was the best boat to fish from." It would seem that this mentality has now won the day among evangelicals, and the Wimber-ization of the church is the outcome. One has to ask, perhaps, what the next fad might be...Richard Kewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10917359509462320976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10440952.post-10787748345419271912008-09-06T22:37:00.000-07:002008-09-06T22:37:00.000-07:00Helpful thoughts here, you are spot on. The "Wimbe...Helpful thoughts here, you are spot on. The "Wimberization of the Church" is worth some more flashing out. Did you experience this in America as well?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com